We have a complex relationship with psychedelics.

To some, they can be gateways to a higher level of consciousness, to others, a poison that should be stamped out.

Regardless of where you stand though, the fact that our brains are capable of creating these fluid, dynamic, altered states of perception seemingly on their own is pretty cool.

But can these experiences be created with light flashes instead of chemicals? And if so, what might we learn from them?

Fiona Macpherson, Professor of Philosophy, and Director of the Centre for the Study of Perceptual Experience at the University of Glasgow and a part of the creative team behind The Dream Machine joins Jonathan to discuss.